The Bible is also profitable and nourishing. The word canon, in classical Greek, is properly a straight rod, "a rule" in the widest sense, and especially in the phrases "the rule of the Church," "the rule of faith," "the rule of truth," The first direct application of the term canon to the Scriptures seems to be in the verses of Amphilochius (cir. My denomination, ELCA, is rather open for various views based upon scripture, faith, and plain reason. Buster11 (we were enjoying ourselves so much)! We are compelled to consider, however, why the Old Testament is the rule of faith, and whether in truth it possesses the authority which the Church has traditionally ascribed to it. Personally I feel this ‘via media’ is superior to the approach of those reformed Churches which do not allow their members theological freedom but rather impose on them a ‘Confession’ to which they must adhere or be expelled. Other designations such as “The Scripture” (John 10:35) and “The Sacred Writings” (2 Tim. 18 God no one has seen at any time; only-begotten god the (one) being into the bosom of the Father that (one) explained. Self-authentication. Indeed, I’ve heard several Protestants claim that Maccabees couldn’t be inspired, because it contains “heresies”…. With the Reformers, the emphasis becomes ensuring that everyone begins from the same starting place: the Bible alone. 45-46. 18 qeo.n ouvdei.j e`w,raken pw,pote\ o` monogenh.j ui`o,j( o` w’n eivj to.n ko,lpon tou/ patro.j evkei/noj evxhgh,sato (John 1 STE) Me – but what doctrines are certain if you exclude oral Tradition and some kind of authority to help us be certain? The Septuagint divided the books of Samuel, Kings, Chronicles and Ezra-Nehemiah each into two, which makes eight instead of four. If they were with God, it would be useless to pray for them; if they were in Hell (or an equivalent of place where no one gets out), it would be useless to pray for them as well. Roman Catholics have a total of eighty books because they recognize the Apocrypha as semicanonical. Is our Old Testament Bible the same as the Lord’s and is our New Testament the same as the Bible of the church fathers? One cannot easily forsake oneself can one! I do not know of any ELCA pastors removed for teaching away from traditional Lutheran teachings on sin, grace, or another doctrine; I do know of stories of pastors removed for ethics violations. Your Greek “interlinear” makes no sense, while the only translation that stands out to agree with you is a Latin one. He does from time to time mention issues he has with some translations. My denomination, ELCA, is rather open for various views based upon scripture, faith, and plain reason. This three-fold division was also attested to by Josephus (A.D. 37-95), Bishop Melito of Sardis (ca. Second, your contention is ahistorical. Until the sensational discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1947 we did not possess copies of the Old Testament earlier than A.D. 895. And surely, Jesus and the early Christians have their priorities in the right order. 9 You must pray, then, this way: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified (Matthew 6). How can a prayer based on a false belief be good? From the time of Ezra and even before, there were priests (Deut. Better students of language and Greek please speak up, but I think all the translations you quoted show that I’m right. I can’t tell you how happy I am to see you in the comments, even if it’s a reminder of how embarrassingly negligent I’ve been in responding to your e-mail. I found a copy of just the Deutero-Canonical books in KJV on that same page, so I’m going to get those to keep with the KJV I already have. Certainly not sola scriptura, sola fide, &c; Presbyterianism, “Baptistism”, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Mormonism, Calvinism, Adventism, etc etc. Laird Harris (R. Laird Harris, Inspiration and Canonicity of the Bible, Grand Rapids, Zondervan, 1969, pp. Hence, yes, truth about those doctrines, which make up most of Christian doctrines, doesn’t matter. When asked what is heresy, someone said: “what is not in the Bible”. We can confidently accept the Bible today as God's Word, reading and living by its teachings that have been revealed and preserved for us today (2 Timothy 3:16-17). “The Scripture explicitly calls the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit God.” Literally aqanasian means ‘without death’. If all of the Scriptural passages were omitted which speak about the authority of the visible Church generally or of St. Peter specifically, there would still be the bare fact of the Catholic Church’s existence. Finally, there was a collection of the books into a canon.”68. It would seem, from this historical fact alone, that if you wanted to know what this Church’s religion was, the best way to find out would be to ask the representatives of that Church. Every metaphysical doctrine lacks any degree of certainty. In Mark 12, the Sadducees approach Him with a question meant to make the idea of bodily resurrection look ridiculous. To this I must ask, how can it be so essential when from Augustine’s time and centuries before people lived without a developed notion of the doctrine, or any notion at all? Your question/example does not fit my denomination. Therefore Jesus is not God – QED. 3:16). Is not the reality that just about every Protestant takes a Bible already made and, by implication, accepts that the people who put it together are infallible? 5:27). And objectively, an observer could say “these aren’t Christian teachings!”. According to Martin Luther, as long as we have the Bible, we don’t anyone telling us what it means, because “nothing whatever is left obscure or ambiguous; but all things that are in the Scriptures, are by the Word brought forth into the clearest light, and proclaimed to the whole world.”  So as long as we all have the Scriptures and are led by the same Holy Spirit, we will all agree upon everything. “The fact that the text fails to say that the prayer was even good, or that God answered it, or that it can under any circumstance avail the dead is crucially damaging to your POV.”. Ultimately, this shift from a common destination to a common point-of-departure matters for three reasons: First, because the Protestant model is ultimately unbiblical, untraditional, and unworkable. The evidence declares that “all Scripture is God breathed and profitable …” (2 Tim. The reason for this is that the Protestant canon of the Old Testament has been influenced by the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX) made about 250-160 B.C. 62-65). You may be surprised to learn that for most of Church history, the (implicit) Christian answer was “not that important.” Why was this the case? I wonder if you might be willing to do a post on various Bible translations? So the two of them are not co-equal then. Your argument would be self-refuting. But they don’t. So, it affirmed the existence of the resurrection. Some questioned whether it was right to accept (as was being done) Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon. They established tedious procedures to protect the text against being changed. This is particularly significant in view of the fact there other murders of God’s messengers recorded in the Apocrypha, but the Lord excludes them suggesting He did not consider the books of the Apocrypha to belong in the Canon as with the books from Genesis to 2 Chronicles. So, according to almost all translations from the Greek, well/fine + honestly/nobly refer to the action. All other translations from the Greek agree. I miss my KJV. Out of the second of the Maccabees they will prove Purgatory and the worship of saints; out of Tobit satisfactions, exorcisms, and what not. At the end of each book are statistics as: the total number of verses in Deuteronomy is 955, the total in the entire Torah is 5,845; the total number of words is 97, 856, and the total number of letters is 400,945.64. Therefore, we cannot expect any more books to be discovered or written that would open the canon again and add to its sixty-six books. 3For the historical developments and factors involved, see esp. Add over 10,000 Latin Vulgate and at least 9,300 other early versions (MSS) and we have more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament. Me – my point if pastor Joe refuses to comply with what ever standard or basic teaching the ELCA expects of them (i.e. Whereas ” ἀστείως πράττων WHILE TRANSACT?-ING (NOM)” makes no sense. Deut. Professor Keen explains, “Over time the word came to mean a standard or rule o… J. Hampton Keathley III, Th.M. So God and Jesus have two different wills. He starts teaching Arianism or the Pope is infallible, Christ was not sinless, the bible is not inspired, etc… Take your pick) and is removed, I don’t think you’d go around trying to spin Pastor Joe’s situation in a positive light by saying Pastor Joe didn’t leave us he was kicked out. Wish I could find it with the Deutero-Canon included. Q. This contrast is startling and tremendously significant. Whereas of course Jesus has died. One reason I even started to post on this blog was because there seemed to be a lack of respect or true understanding of other denominations in the comments (yes, that can certainly go both ways). It’s also why there are huge theological disputes within denominations. Not only that, we probably only have a small percentage of all the early Christian writings. Yet He doesn’t furnish them with a corrected list of inspired Scripture; instead, He shows them proof of the resurrection from their own Bible (Mk. So the holy spirit and the Son are not co-equal and are different beings. They are folowing doctrines from someone else who extrapolated their own doctrines from scripture. The issue of reception is for me far more important than the other criteria (largely because the others cannot be falsified). In fact, both Peter and Paul set this example in their final letters.2 Peter 1:12-2:1 goes into detail how Scripture, not a bishopric or a live in tradition, is the safeguard against false prophets. Evangelical Protestants have recognized the twenty-seven books of the New Testament as inspired. The canon of Scripture is the list of all the books that belong in the Bible. So God revealed it not Jesus, so they are two different spirits. By this standard, a number of books were rejected. I see no reason to reject 2 Maccabees because of the 12th chapter. However, he did acknowledge that they were not fully authoritative., Your “under dispute” is under dispute. That God would provide and preserve a Canon of Scripture without addition or deletion is not only necessary, but it is logically credible. It doesn’t matter what you believe he is, what you believe his followers preached; it doesn’t matter what you practice. It is not in the Bible. It is just easier to deny prayers for the dead and Purgatory if you deny that Maccabees is not an inspired book. doesn’t support prayers for the dead as a good and pious action, and that therefore it doesn’t matter whether Mac. Similarly, succeeding prophets were received upon due authentication, and their written works were received with the same respect, being received therefore as the Word of God. Craig, you claim: “Joe writes that Calvin rejected the Deuterocanon because it taught Catholic doctrines, and implies his is true of all of Protestantism. That’s what I was looking for! The canon of Scripture was written early, determined early, and has been unchanged since those times. But before you do that you have to work out what exactly is the Bible. Two different beings to put your faith in. In short, Marcion’s heresy is about trying to de-Judaize the Gospel, and this heresy leads him to try to purge the Scriptures of all of their Jewish elements. κατ’ DOWN/ACCORDING TO/AS PER (+ACC), AGAINST (+GEN) ἀνδρολογίαν εἰς INTO (+ACC) ἀργυρίου PIECE OF SILVER (GEN) δραχμὰς DRACHMAS/DRACHMAI (ACC) δισχιλίας TWO THOUSAND (ACC) ἀπέστειλεν HE/SHE/IT-SEND-FORTH-ED εἰς INTO (+ACC) Ιεροσόλυμα JERUSALEM (NOM|ACC|VOC), JERUSALEM (NOM|VOC) προσαγαγεῖν TO-BRING περὶ ABOUT (+ACC,+GEN) ἁμαρτίας SIN (GEN), SINS (ACC) θυσίαν SACRIFICE (ACC) πάνυ καλῶς WELL/RIGHTLY καὶ AND ἀστείως πράττων WHILE TRANSACT?-ING (NOM) ὑπὲρ ABOVE (+ACC), ON BEHALF OF (+GEN) ἀναστάσεως RESURRECTION (GEN) διαλογιζόμενος WHILE BEING-DELIBERATE-ED (NOM). 8 Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered; And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection. Sometimes it is claimed that Martin Luther rejected the Book of James as being canonical. 7 In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. This is the interlinear septuagint I quoted: The only exception was Augustine (A. D. 400) who included the books of the Apocrypha (those “extra” books that some Bibles include between the books of the Old and New Testaments). 18 qeon oudeij ewraken pwpote monogenhj qeoj o wn eij ton kolpon tou patroj ekeinoj exhghsato (John 1 VatB). Prologue to Ecclesiasticus. The English word canon comes from the Greek κανών, meaning "rule" or "measuring stick".Christians were the first to use the term in reference to scripture, but Eugene Ulrich regards the notion as Jewish. All other doctrines, without explicit sanction, lack the same degree of certainty. F. F. Bruce, The Canon of Scripture (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1988), 117-269. ], and so on. It’s the name of the game in your town for the last 500 years. that is, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? 74 Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands A Verdict, Historical Evidences for the Christian Faith, Revised Edition, Here’s Life Publishers, Inc., San Bernardino, 1979, p. 39. Looking at History will at eliminate the Protestant churches and leave a couple to choose from. Did it edify the church? The advantage for the Catholic Church is that it can justify its authority through its link to Peter, though I find it slightly ironic when the authority of Peter is justified from Scripture. 62 For an excellent treatment of these evidences, see Josh McDowell’s book, Evidence Demands a Verdict, Historical Evidences for the Christian Faith, Revised Edition, Here’s Life Publishers, Inc. San Bernardino, CA, 1979. Since the year 1517, modern Hebrew Bibles divided the books into thirty-nine, but kept the three-fold division including the arrangement of the books (Genesis through 2 Chronicles) as in the ancient Hebrew Bible. This was of the greatest importance, for it provided a much earlier check on the accuracy of the Masoretic text, which has now proved to be extremely accurate. “But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. “12:43: after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmas, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an action altogether fine and noble, prompted by his belief in the resurrection. Even in theory it was an impossibility. When you cannot just deny the canonicity of it, you bring specious exegesis-cum-translation to fit a square peg in a round hole. “an action fine and noble”, “doing therein very well” etc etc. So there is no ‘unity of Godhead’. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I agree with you about the existence of Reformed communities which are as doctrinally strict as Roman Catholicism, and with less justification (since they lack the sort of authority needed to be making the sort of declarations that they make). As I’ve mentioned before, it’s because the Sadducees’ Bible only included the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). Craig Truglia writes: P.S. Following Moses, God raised up the institution of prophecy to continue revealing Himself to His people (cf. Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. I’m just reading what the text says, provided a handful of “literal” translations from the Greek along with some vocabulary, just for the sake of argument, and you quote an incomprehensible “interlinear” Greek that even mistranslates/forgets a word ἀστείως, translates another πράττων with a word that doesn’t even fit the context, and then you say my first translation (Jerusalem Bible) was tendentious, and when I present a series of similar translations, the majority which agree with the Jerusalem Bible, you go on and say it’s no the translation, it’s not the translation: the problem is my interpretation thereof! Even if it affirms another true one. How Did We Get the Canon? In most things I read, the underlying belief is simply that true doctrine is as unreacheable as the ultimate scientific truth, that doctrines are just conjectures, falsifiable hypotheses, or (at the same time!) It is a pleasure to be able to reveal the truth behind this despicable mind game that the Roman Catholic Church has relied on for 1700 years. is known to us from eight MSS, the earliest belonging to about the beginning of the Christian era. There are some (a couple, maybe?) I understand that if that medicinal action is taken the person still must attend the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass and continue as a catholic by supporting the parish/community he/she belongs to. The Greek Bible of Alexandria thus became the official Bible of the Christian community, and the overwhelming number of quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures in the New Testament are derived from it. Harris concludes, “The law was accorded the respect of the author, and he was known as God’s messenger. So God and Jesus have separate possessions. Did it reflect a record of actual facts? Abel’s death is recorded in Genesis and in the Hebrew Bible 2 Chronicles is the last book. It’s not “my” original translation. Hence, your original translation leads the reader to believe that the action of the prayer itself was fine and noble, and his belief in the resurrection merely prompted the prayer. I think you need a little bit of a more literal translation. (2) The content of the New Testament writings testified to their authenticity and they naturally were collected, being recognized as canonical. 16 In answer Simon Peter said: You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Luther was excommunicated by the Pope. And because they are inspired, no other books are; they have a unique divine authority by which we follow in our life and belief what they teach. Exercise faith also in me (John 14). It only means that the only doctrines we can be certain of are revealed in the Scripture. Everyone arrives at a common destination century, whereas the Vaticanus and the Son of.! God. ” that almost made me laugh same Bible in acting in this area there! 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